Comment on 8BitDo announces it's controllers now have Steam/SteamOS compatibility
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks agoThan you are like most mouse and keyboard players where you confidently assume mouse and keyboard is the best controd method end of story. You don’t know what you are talking about and neither do any reply guys who will try to obliterate this point with a salvo of “um actually” killer rhetorical points.
That is a Ukrainian soldier using a steam deck to control actual weapon systems real humans (likely mouse and keyboard players who have no ability to use a gamepad) are counting on to survive an actual war.
Honestly if I sound snarky it is because I have grown to love how unshakably mouse and keyboard players believe they are using the only method to play competitively. Especially in a battlefield type FPS game with aircraft, mouse and keyboard players will hilariously refuse to fly with anything other than mouse and keyboard or a crazy complex flight simulator setup with a flight joystick they talk about but will never get.
Meanwhile there is an xbox one controller sitting in the other room that in 5 minutes they could learn to pull of flight maneuvers smoothly and confidently that are next to impossible to do with mouse and keyboard…
I point this out to mouse and keyboard players directly and they don’t listen even why I fly literal circles around them.
me flying circles around people
Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
No, it’s great for driving and flying. It’s also the best option for most souls-likes and third person melee games.
OK, this is a stupid point. This is a much different scenario than someone sitting at home. The Deck is portable, light, and has control and display built in. It’s perfect for this, where a desktop wouldn’t really work. Even if the control scheme isn’t ideal (which it’s great for controlling a drone, but that’s beside the point), setting up a keyboard and mouse with a monitor and power would be horrible for them.
For aiming, it’s almost always better. Controller is better for movement usually. Controller inputs are between 0 and 1. Mouse is unrestrained, so it’s more precise and faster at the same time.
Again, controller is great for driving and flying. You can swap inputs freely though. Use both if you want. Driving and flying on KB&M is not that bad though, and aiming with a controller is significantly worse, so if you’re choosing one KB&M is the right choice.
I like that these follow each other. Of course you can get clips that look good, and also you know there are clips where you look bad. What does that prove?
This is irrelevant to the conversation, but there are different types of mechanical skill. The skill you use in Quake is not the same as the skill you use in Counter Strike, for example. Both of them require incredible skill at high level play. Largely it’s down to accuracy VS precision. Quake style you need to be more accurate (shoot in the right area) but less precise. CS you’ll be aiming in the right spot already, so you need less precision and more accuracy. You’ve got a fraction of a second to get a headshot, and you have to hit it. Gyro aim is likely only going to make that harder.
There’s a reason top level players of all competitive shooters (and gaming in general usually) on PC use KB&M even though controllers are usable on PC. If there was an argument here you’d see at least a few using controllers.
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
No it isn’t, they could use a mouse if they wanted to, and they aren’t. Sure it helps that the Steam Deck is portable, but if you think they are all sitting there wishing they could have a mouse and keyboard you are being silly.
Yeah your tangent here is, I know there are different types of mechanical skill but don’t come at me like competitive Counter Strike requires more reaction speed, hand eye coordination and target prediction than quake, you are deceiving yourself because you can’t admit that high level quake play just shits on any kind of counterstrike style game along the real but ultimately arbitrary axis of pure mechanical skill, aim, reaction time and ability to prediction the motion of chaotic intelligent enemies. It isn’t up for debate, the movement in Xonotic is 1 million times more complex and fast than it is in Counter Strike… by design.
This does help segway into a nice summary of why you are so wrong here, my point was that if you can play Xonotic somewhat competitively using joysticks and gyroscope aim than that is proof you can play any mechanically less taxing game competitively with this set up. That doesn’t mean Counter Strikes is any easier than Xonotic or Quake 3 Live, what it means is that the there is less raw skill required in the actual moment to moment gameplay vs. having skill, knowledge and experience in every other aspect of competition that is vital other than just literally being good at doing the thing.
I will not have a discussion about this lead into a digression into bickering about how skill is more than just raw reaction time or aim skill… yes I know, I never claimed otherwise read my words closer before you react with this argument.
I would like to also respond to your argument that if using joysticks and gyroscope were competitive you would see at least some PC players using them in competition. This is a massively flawed assumption though it is reasonable on the surface.
The hardware for gyroscope capable joystick gamepads, whether they are integrated into a handheld gaming console or they are contained within the controller like on a Ps5 controller, has not been around for very long in any accessible fashion.
You are ignorant in the way most pc gaming people are in that you are ignoring the MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH larger playerbase of mobile shooter gamers using purely a smartphone with touchscreen controls and gyroscope… that are playing at a competitive level that you would flat out deny if I showed you videos of. You don’t know what you are talking about, you haven’t seen high level players on ipads playing Farlight 84 or Call of Duty Mobile and thus you have no grounds to make the claim there isn’t evidence that joysticks and gyroscope aim can’t be competitive because you see no evidence of it. Call Of Duty Mobile is one of the most played games on the planet, get with the program buddy.
As I have pointed out repeatedly in my arguments, just because there is a superior way to do it DOES NOT mean computer people/gamers will elect to use it. Computer people/gamers are no different than any other demographic of humans in that they will irrationally refuse to try certain things for no good reason, the thing that makes them unique is the degree of confidence they have that they do not do this because they are good at computers and/or programming. Thus at a fundamental level even if you are right and there aren’t any competitive joysticks and gyroscope players out there than it still isn’t actually very good evidence that it isn’t possible to play competitively with joysticks and gyroscope because there is no reason to assume pc gamers would actually evolve and try it. PC first person shooter competitive gamers just recently decided to stop using CRT monitors I mean… come on don’t look to them to be harbingers of innovation!
Mouse and Keyboard will always be a massive part of competitive gaming, I will also refuse to be lead along a digression into arguing about this, I am not denying the immense competitive capacity for mouse and keyboard at certain genres of video games, but we are no longer in an evnironment that pc gamers assumed would continue indefinitely forever… there are other competitive control schemes now that can beat mouse and keyboard, decisively in some cases depending on the competitive esport. These include joysticks and gyroscope aim control for gamepads/gaming handhelds and touchscreen and gyroscope controls for smartphones. There will be more discovered, this makes mouse and keyboard players uncomfortable shrugs but as pc gamers love to say condescendingly, it is the way it is.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this, but not, you wouldn’t. It wouldn’t be practical. Watch this and you’ll understand that it really isn’t an option. You don’t have a nice desk to sit at while you’re doing this stuff. You’re in a war zone. It’s a totally different situation, and not comparable, to you sitting in your comfy home. Again, this is not stating which is better (probably controller anyway), just that it doesn’t matter to the conversation. For example, soldiers eating MREs doesn’t prove they’re the best meal. No, they’re practical, portable, and stable, which you need because you’re in a fucking war zone.
If you want to look at a better situation, look at pro players of games. They’re on KB&M.
I don’t know what this even means. Requires more skill? Is that what you mean? The amount of skill required is purely dictated by level of play. Top level players will likely be at the extent of human ability, no matter the game (assuming it has a large enough player base). Top level play is defined as the limit of skills, making them effectively all equal. Quake has a high skill floor, but the ceiling is essentially as high as CS. If you mean shits on as in it’s “better” then I don’t care, and apparently neither does anyone else because CS is watched and played far more.
We agree.
I don’t know what I’m spending my time here on. I agree controller has some advantages. So does KB&M. Use them for what they’re best at.
I agree. Again, look at CS pros. They stuck to using 4:3 (sometimes black bars, sometimes stretched) for a long time, even on 16:9 monitors. However, they adapt over time. Literally none have gotten to a high level with a controller, even though plenty have played with them, even with gyro.
I feel like you didn’t read my comment and just started ranting. I said controllers are better for some things. Driving and flying in particular. These both have custom hardware better suited for them usually though. We haven’t replaced steering wheels in cars because they’re better for driving. We haven’t replaced sticks in (most) planes because they’re better for flying. Controllers are best at being cheap, versitile, and convenient. They do suit drone flight well though, and may be ideal for that. Even without the Deck, drones were controlled by a dual stick system usually, so a controller naturally fits.