How do you explain the vast wealth of free software and entertainment media created by both professionals and hobbyists alike? How do you explain the profitability of games and movies when any of us can pirate a copy with little effort? Why is it possible to sell copies of public domain books when we have libraries?
Comment on Jack Dorsey would like to ‘delete all IP law’.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
I am hard side eyeing everyone who are pro abolishment of IP laws. You are either mindless consumers who have never spent time and effort creating anything yourselves your entire lives, or you haven’t thought this through.
I hope for the latter.
stray@pawb.social 4 days ago
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
Why is it possible to sell copies of public domain books when we have libraries?
because somebody physically produces the book wdym?
btw just because something is in the public domain, doesn’t mean that every variant attached to it is, just the one specifically defined under law, a book that is in the public domain, but also on the shelves of a retailer, might not be a public domain work at all. Because it’s a different work entirely.
I’m not even sure you can prevent the production of a work, just because it’s public domain, you just can’t hold copyright on it, so you could theoretically print and sell a book in the public domain legally, as long as you don’t declare that you own copyright.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 3 days ago
When software and entertainment is created for people to use for free, that is a deliberate action from the creator. They can’t do that every single time, but they can do it once in awhile if they please.
I am a professional artist and I sometimes draw things for free for other people because sometimes I decide it is worth it for me to do that. It is kinda like doing volunteer work. You don’t get paid, but it gives you something back either socially or ideologically etc.
But I am pretty sure that the people who create free software and entertainment either aren’t working full time in software or entertainment and get their money from an unrelated job or they decided to do one for the community inbetween orders. They would not do this all the time if they were financially dependent on their skills and products giving them food on the table. I don’t think you would give your own services away for free all the time in the name of community spirit. But once in awhile, is fine. Then it is an agreement you made woth yourself, that you have given a work to the community for free and therefore you don’t care about IP.
When it comes to games and copying, well, people have copied media for ages and no matter what you say, it does affect profitability. Musicians can’t earn any money on their music. They earn money on merch and when they are on tour. Nobody buys their music anymore because they can just download it for free online. I can’t speak for games as I’m not a gamer, but with movies I personally prefer to buy a physical copy of the film rather than downloading movies in poorer quality than what I would have been able to get on bluray. I don’t know, but I can imagine people still buy games to get the best quality and maybe enough people want to financially support the developers to make sure that they can still produce good games than they want to make copies and share them. If games ended up being copied to the same extent thst music does, I think you would start to see an effect on the market because making games would no longer be financially possible. In fact, the gaming industry bubble did burst a few years ago and I know a lot of developers who can’t find jobs. Similar in animation. And it is not like any of these creators lived good beforehand either. A profitable game, I doubt is profitable in the way you think it is. It is my personal experience from being both part of and a spectator in the industry that the success of any creation is largely smoke and mirrors. People are extremely poor and companies go bankrupt all the time, especially in recent years. Maybe part of it is because people decide to copy a game for free rather than buy it, maybe it is bigger than that, but people don’t really value art nowadays because they don’t see it as art, but as content that they can mindlessly consume and get easy access to. It should be easier than ever for artists to earn money with how much art people consume, but the opposite is true. If artists have their intellectual property taken from them as well in the landscape we already have, then that will be the death of the art career. We have so little already. If we can’t even keep domain over our own creation, then what is the point?
I don’t understand your argument about public domain books. Public domain refers to the material no longer having a living creator who can profit from their own work. People can sell public domain books but that money goes to the publisher who probably did a lovely new edition of an old book with pretty covers.
I don’t know what you mean. The money from a sale of a public domain book won’t financially support the author.
If we talk about a living author who owns their IP and their book is available in the library, then I still say the same thing I did before, that the library doesn’t sell the books, nor do they take ownership of the IP. The book market also has other problems than public libraries. The problems they face is that no one reads anymore, but that is a different discussion.
Lightor@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Exactly, people don’t actually think about this. They just think “I get stuff companies have” and not “no one will write books anymore.” If creative people can’t make money by creating, they do something else. Why make music, books, art, when doing so becomes a financial drain.
Imagine a world where you created a hit story online. Well a big company could make that a book, sell it and you see nothing. If it got big they could sell merch, which you would see none of. Big companies, by having manufacturing and distribution setup, could steal any idea at any point and put it into the machine. This would be a nightmare.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
This is exactly what would happen.
I’m a creator myself and it is already hard enough to get jobs - not even well paying jobs, just jobs. Now we are competing with AI and then you’re telling me that people here on Lemmy agree with these wolves about abolishing IP laws, which means my hard work and intellectual property that I have spent countless hours on developing, is now up for grabs for anyone out there who is bigger and richer than me?
I seriously don’t believe people have thought this through, or they are lying about being creators themselves.
But I guess the “I got mine” mentality is all over the internet. Even here, lol. No one cares as long as they think it doesn’t affect them personally. Ladidah. How did that go for the American farmers who voted for Trump because they thought it would help their farms?
Lightor@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Yep, this is Trump’s Tariffs all over again.
And if this happened, people would cheer as they got all this stuff for free, without realizing that they just killed the future of creativity.
The irony is people want this to happen because they see companies as greedy. When in fact, this move itself would be incredibly greedy and feed the corporations that people are trying to rail against.
And all these free movies and software are only “free” until they find a way to enforce logins and always online BS for everything. Big companies won’t just give up their IP, they will fight this and find a way to hoard.
BoulevardBlvd@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
But people with tuberculosis in the third world would get to live. Decent trade off. No actually, the only good option. Anyone who even brings up art when discussing IP (much less defends it in the discussion) is a coddled narcissist with no perspective
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
Absolutely. We will see a scenario where the big companies readjust to the new market while everybody else loses.
This reminds me of the mocking of unions that I witnessed happening a lot online a year or two ago and I was so fucking confused how normal everyday people who didn’t own big companies could poopoo unions and call it commie shit.
In my country, we have a proud union history that has secured the rights of workers for generations so it was very bizarre to me to see - mostly Americans - mock unions as a concept.
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
i think it’s more likely that everyone would race to the bottom to make the cheapest Marvel, Pokémon, Disney, Star Wars, Harry Potter spin offs, merch and content they could.
Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 days ago
I have spent time and effort creating things myself. Still think ip law is not entirely accomplishing what it should, which is protecting the interests of people producing intellectual works, preferably while they can still reap the benefits of said work and are not financially/socially stable. It seems it’s basically working backwards, great for inheritors to make millions by doing nothing except owning some IPs but terrible at protecting the people who actually need it.
I also know a few people holding some important patents, and I guess the patent system is alright in comparison, at least in France, since it did actually protect their work while also allowing others to use it fairly and improve on it.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to IP laws, but abolishing them entirely is not the win some people think it is.
BoulevardBlvd@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
Only because you don’t think big enough. The company that could “change their strategy to get around it” should be torn down with the IP law. Art shouldn’t be a part of this discussion. Art shouldn’t ever = food. Anyone trying to uphold a society where it does has already lost the plot
Nangijala@feddit.dk 3 days ago
I get that you see no value in art, but I thoroughly disagree with your views on that subject. You and i could have had an interesting discussion on how IP laws affects medicine but I’m not gonna have that with you since you are exactly the kind of person who has zero respect for people who make things.
Gallows@lemm.ee 3 days ago
The problem for me is that if you abolish copyrights it means your creation can be used for any reason without permission.
Maybe you don’t care if somebody downloads your music for free to listen to or uses it in their goofy TikTok dance video.
But, no copyright also means the most terrible person on the planet can use your song at their political rally. They can use it as a backing tracks for ideals you do not agree with. A major corporation can use it in their advertising campaign. They can even straight up sell your creations as their own for profit.
Without the protection of copyright, artists, authors, musicians, video content creators, etc. have no say in how their work is used.
uis@lemm.ee 3 days ago
All you described is happening WITH copyright and even enforced by it.
Without the protection of copyright, artists, authors, musicians, video content creators, etc. have no say in how their work is used.
Copyright owner is not author. Publisher(disney, EA, Ubisoft) controls everything and author has no say in it. Often authors in order to discuss their works and show portfolios have to pirate their own work(e.g. The Owl House). So copyright protects inability of artists, authors, musicians, video content creators, etc. have no say in how their work is used.
Jayjader@jlai.lu 3 days ago
That’s one of the least worrying aspects of abolishing copyright for me. but then again, the whole “control what others do with your creation” never sat right with me in the first place. I tend to fall into the “property is theft” line of reasoning.
With regards to profit sharing in particular, well, I think copyright law is a paltry, dirty bandage that covers up the festering wound of for-profit art. At the very least, the wound needs to be cleaned and the bandage changed.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 3 days ago
Exactly. There are so, so, so many different ways that no IP laws can backfire severely and in ways that people don’t think about. The scenario you just used, I hadn’t even thought of, but yes! I would HATE for something I created to be used to promote ideologies or products I am vehemently against.
BoulevardBlvd@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
Don’t care. Don’t like what you created existing? Don’t make it. You’re using “but muh art” to prop up a system which is needlessly killing people by denying them access to information which would save their lives. Your art doesn’t matter. The concept of IP is evil
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
IP law and copyright is really important. It protects people from companies, and companies from bad actors.
easily3667@lemmus.org 3 days ago
Patents are also how you kill electronic vehicles for 15 years.
I think if you said “major reform” like use it or lose it, mandatory licensing, and any other number of sane overhauls…sure, but the point is to destroy the broken system we have today.
Valmond@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Swedish (For the user name)?
I think you should have rights but not like it is today with stupid 100 years after authors death.
You can also protect the creation, without having laws banning people using it. Like if you buy a painting in france, you can’t burn it or “disrespect” (sorry, can’t find a better word) it.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
Yes, there are definitely room for improvement when it comes to IP laws but that is a completely different discussion from the one about abolishing IP laws entirely. One discussion is constructive and aims toward a more fair system, the other is Trump-anarchy which will only ever benefit the ones who have money and power while it will screw the rest of us over.
Also, not Swedish. I just love Astrid Lindgren.
Valmond@lemmy.world 4 days ago
See ya in Nangilima!
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
Dude, it wasn’t until I was in my 20s that I realized that the last shot of the movie adaptation was a shot of their gravestone in the real world. Until then I had been so severely in denial about the implications of that, that I just didn’t register it.
I’m telling you, I was bawling on the floor.
EnsignWashout@startrek.website 4 days ago
I’ve created lots of things. The moment I finish creating it, I sign over my IP rights in exchange for money for food, and never have a right to it again.
Without IP law, the thing I created would at least be in the commons where I can still legally use it.
Lightor@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Voiding all IP law would cause a huge loss in the creative community.
If people can no longer pay their bills by creating then they stop creating and work. If I can’t pay my bills by writing a book or creating art and selling it, then I stop doing that and get a job at Walmart.
EnsignWashout@startrek.website 3 days ago
I agree. I wouldn’t be in favor of “burn it down” if I thought we could negotiate better terms with our current IP oligarchs.
I’ll still be available to do creative work. It wouldn’t change my current work-for-hire efforts.
Very little valuable IP is held by actual creators, today.
Are you an actual published creator, or a temporarily embarrassed future billionaire? Is there a version of success for you that isn’t just selling to a big IP company to get enough money to retire? That’s what it looks like, to me. The peak of my possible success would be to write something that threatens/tempts the big IP holders enough to force them to buy me out. If I don’t take the buy out, they eventually bury my thing with their advertising power.
I don’t really disagree with you. I’m actually in favor of keeping and fixing IP laws, if that’s possible.
But I believe the IP laws we have now only serve our billionaire employers. So, as a creator, I won’t fight to keep our current IP laws.
Lightor@lemmy.world 3 days ago
So since we can’t save it, we just burn it down? The legal system isn’t doing so hot either, should we just get rid of laws? I mean rich people can break then and regular people can’t, should we just get rid of them since we can’t fix it right now?
I don’t know what kind of work you do, but it would impact many. You can’t show drafts, you can’t present mock-ups, etc, because they can just take those. You could make art for someone saying they will pay and then they don’t. You could get a refund, but they just copied the art and it’s theirs now.
This also harms people who in literature especially. They don’t own the book they write. And for anyone to appreciate it, they also have the ability to give it away for free. But I guess since it doesn’t impact you, it’s somehow not a problem?
This may be true, but guess how they lost that IP? They sold it. They owned it and were able to sell it to a bigger company that could run away with it. Without IP the selling part goes away, they just take it and run away with it. I mean come on, how do you think authors make money?
But that falls apart when I have actually created and sold software. I have created IP. And I’ve had actually to defend my personal IP from a previous employer.
What? You’re just making up a scenario in your head. If you can sell your IP to company and live comfortably for the rest of your life while they do all the heavy lifting and you get paid while people enjoy what you create, how is that some big loss? Because you want all the money? Sure, then self publish, it’s an option. Start a small LLC, people do it, stop acting like it’s the only way forward.
I mean, false. This is just wrong, people have created companies, brands, book series, etc. This just seems like you have decided you have no chance so you don’t try and want to tear down the system so you can get yours.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
I personally fear that if such a decision was passed, we would see big companies find loopholes and exceptions and/or they would make their profit entirely by stealing from creators without compensation or acknowledgements.
You want to hurt the big companies so badly you’re willing to saw the branch they, you and everybody else sit on just so you can see them fall.
I doubt the big companies will be the ones who will feel threatened into negotiations if IP laws were abolished. They would flourish with their businesses and the AI tech bros would have field day making billions by stealing from all of us.
Your utopia is every creator’s nightmare.
Neverclear@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 days ago
I believe it would be darker than mere loopholes. Corporations would probably both protect their own IP and steal each others’ IP through militant means. Like, Cyberpunk 2077 could become reality.
BoulevardBlvd@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
No. Militant means aren’t needed when no IP exists, especially when we use the same force we’re discussing to enforce the “no IP” issue to enforce the “not trade secrets” rider that goes along with it. IP is a blight and are shouldn’t be a job. The commercialization of art is forcing you to excuse millions of preventable deaths because you don’t also want to address the issue that we allow people to work far longer per week than is natural or right. If you were still surviving on 20hrs of labor a week like all of humanity did pre capitalism, you wouldn’t be bitching so much about your art being stolen because art would return to a leisure pursuit for you where it should be.
You’re being fucked so hard you’ve completely lost sight of what’s important and it’s allowing you to justify genocide by withholding access to lifesaving drugs because you want to make money off a drawing
EnsignWashout@startrek.website 3 days ago
I didn’t say “utopia”. We need IP laws. But since we continue to let Disney (and other mega corporations) dictate the entire terms of engagement - we need to bring “burning the whole thing down and starting over” into the list of options under consideration. It’s the only way to bring Disney back to the bargaining table, at minimum.
BoulevardBlvd@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
Why on earth does every interpretation you have start with the assumption that people advocating for the destruction of IP are not also simultaneously arguing for the destruction of any company who could find a workaround? You’re approaching this from the silliest angle ever. The person you’re arguing against doesn’t exist. Anyone who is truely against IP also wants any company who is using currently profiting off of IP to be destroyed along with it
It’s such a weird take. Also, “creator” shouldn’t be a job. Nothing that isn’t critical to human survival should be part of the monetary system. Art should only exist for arts sake and everyone should be afforded enough time to pursue it fully without worrying about survival
No IP + universal income is the only moral way forward
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
voiding all IP law would literally bankrupt the entire media industry, crashing tens if not hundreds of billions out of the industry practically overnight.