Submitted 1 year ago by WoodlandAlliance@lemm.ee to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
This occurred to me while listening to the news. When they exchange people it’s always hostages for people held in Palestine and prisoners for people held in Israel. Why is that? Is it just perception or is there a practical difference?
Israel put people in jail for crimes which were illegal. Hammas kidnapped random people, many from a dance club.
Well this is factually just not true. Israel kidnaps many Palestinians even children without evidence and releases them after a “holding period”.
They often do this just to bully Palestinians in the west bank.
Wow those things are exactly equivalent, I can’t believe different terms are being used /s
This is a question of perspective though.
Obviously i don’t hold their views but I presume hammas has some justification along the lines of Israelis being criminals.
Is this trolling? The hostages are civilians (babies, old people etc, women etc). The Palestinians are getting combatants who were arrested for other attacks by and large.
aljazeera.com/…/who-were-the-palestinian-prisoner…
I know Israeli supporters are going to bristle at the source, but the “combatants” include 17 minors and women.
The list of 300 comprises 33 women. The majority of the rest of the names are of boys aged 16-18. However, there are also boys as young as 14 on the list.
Prisoners have been convicted of crimes including carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Other common offences detailed in Israel’s list include:
*threatening security *illegally entering Israel without a permit *throwing stones *supporting terrorism *associating with hostile/unknown organisations.
Also noted about minors detained by Israel:
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children.
Is there really any true justice in an apartheid State?
Hi, Israeli here. You didn’t really point out any misinformation, the linked article just gives some (IMO wrong and even misleading) context.
The majority of the rest of the names are of boys aged 16-18. However, there are also boys as young as 14 on the list.
The 14 year old kid was charged for hostile sabotage activity, gathering or association, attacking a police officer under serious circumstances, throwing stones, negligence and general recklessness, maliciously or negligently causing damage to property, arson on nationalistic grounds, weapons/ammunition/explosives. Also, it’s worth noting his trial was ongoing.
Prisoners have been convicted of crimes including carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Other common offenses detailed in Israel’s list include […]
Ehh… technically true, but very misleading. Usually, there are a few charges, some more serious than others. The 14yo kid could be described as “charged with negligence and general recklessness”, but that wouldn’t be the whole picture. Here’s a link to a list of 300 prisoners due to be released. It’s in Hebrew, but copy-pasting into google translate is good enough to understand the charges:
www.gov.il/he/departments/…/is-db?skip=0
In the first page, there are 2 prisoners charged with carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Both are also charged with attempted murder (one is 17 years old, btw).
And regarding “associating with hostile/unknown organisations”, from what I could tell, this means that the prisoner was charged with being affiliated with Hamas. Hamas is considered a terrorist group in the US, UK, Canada and Australia (Not to mention they massacred more than 1,000 citizens). So this might be my Israeli bias speaking, but… what’s unreasonable with throwing them to prison? Would being affiliated with ISIS or Al-Qaeda not carry a prison sentence?
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children.
Yes, “can carry”. A 20 year sentence is only applicable if the rocks were thrown at a moving vehicle with intent to cause harm. without proving intent, the sentence is 10 years. Children are not explicitly mentioned (though the reality is that most rock throwers are minors). In practice, the courts try to avoid sentencing minors who are charged mainly with rock throwing to prison, and even when they are sentenced to prison it’s for a few months.
I don’t understand what minors and women has to do with it. Only adult men (where adult just means >18yo) can be terrorists? The other points might be valid (or not), but just saying “there are minors and women” means nothing.
None of the Palestinian prisoners released today had been imprisoned for “stone-throwing.” One woman stabbed several Israelis with a knife.
Is there really any true justice in an apartheid State?
I’ve never seen anyone even pretend to justify how Israel is apartheid.
You are aware that Gaza is not in Israel, yes?
Are you intentionally spreading misinformation?
Some of them are freelancers, others fully employed.
Y'all, this is a rhetorical question meant to serve as a zinger against Israel. OP doesn't want actual answers.
It’s also a good discussion of how propaganda works. I mean, we continually see how Israel lies, now we’re seeing the misinformation campaign about all the “combatants” being released that are actually teenage boys, many of whom were captured for throwing rocks and may face 20 years in prison for it.
To talk about Israels propaganda in today’s social media landscape is propaganda itself.
Pretty much on all channels there’s a between 10:1 and 20:1 relationship between pro Palestinian vs pro Israel comments.
Throwing a rock at someone can cause grievous injury or death. We’re not talking about pebbles; they’re throwing multi-kilogram stones in an attempt to damage IDF property and harm IDF soldiers.
And you may say “ok, well, that’s war; soldiers and their equipment are fair game” and that’s fair, but if you attack enemy soldiers that makes you a soldier, whatever your age might be.
So the IDF can either capture and imprison these people, or they can shoot them. Sometimes they do - the prisoners held by IDF are the ones they didn’t.
I’ve seen this posted elsewhere, and while it’s a valid thing to talk about it distracts from the bigger issues
Others here have explained the difference between someone who’s taken as a prisoner (they are being held because of something they allegedly did) and someone who’s taken hostage (someone who’s held as security for some other purpose). From what I can tell, even Hamas isn’t saying the hostages are guilty of anything. It seems like those involved in the situation agree that the terminology is appropriate.
The more important discussion imo are:
There is also some more important discussion around terminology, such as one group being called “women” (implies humanity) and another “females” (more formal, scientific, and a term that’s also used for animals).
Gunna go with probably not legit charges seeing as how they arrested about 10,000 civilian Palestinians. Notably they were in their own country so it is by definition hostage taking given the laws of Israel so not apply in Palestine and they have no extradition agreement in fact they have the exact opposite.
If someone from the US was taken from the US and put in prison in Israel for a crime in Israel without permission to extradite the other country would be accused of unlawful imprisonment and unlawful extradition. Would anyone like to guess the charge that a country taking a hostage would be accused of?
Thanks! This is really helpful
This sounds like a really idiotic bad faith question.
Hostages are used as meat shields and can be executed at any time, and typically innocent of any crime.
Prisoners are found guilty of a crime by a court system and then safely put away, since they have still rights.
I hate the fact that people who are trying to obtain information about the war are met with condescending answers like this. Attempts at gaining knowledge and learning should be motivated, not insulted.
I mean, especially in a community called “No Stupid Questions”
This isn't just about the war but just very basic language and definitions of those terms. You could've literally just searched for "prisoner definition" and "hostage definition". Literally less than a minute of work if that somehow was unclear in t he first place. Bad faith questions like his are very common disinformation tactics to paint a false equivalence in order to push certain narratives.
Prisoners are found guilty of a crime by a court system and then safely put away, since they have still rights.
Yeah about that …
“In administrative detention, a person is held without trial without having committed an offense, on the grounds that he or she plans to break the law in the future. As this measure is supposed to be preventive, it has no time limit. The person is detained without legal proceedings, by order of the regional military commander, based on classified evidence that is not revealed to them. This leaves the detainees helpless – facing unknown allegations with no way to disprove them, not knowing when they will be released, and without being charged, tried or convicted.”
There are two possible definitions. One is the judicial one many have brought up already:
Hamas just kidnapped random people
Israel took prisoners and charged them with criminal offenses
Another is the geopolitical one:
Israel is a state, so it takes official prisoners. Even if those.were wrongly convicted or innocent people,.they'd still be prisoners of war
Hamas is not a state, it's a gaggle of shitheads. Shitheads can't take prisoners as they have no jurisdiction. So their captives are hostages.
The last one would be the motive:
Hamas holds those people with the motive to trade them off to Israel for some gain or otherwise use them as bargaining chip. Israel has taken those people with the opposite goal: Imprison them/punish them for their crimes
Palestinians would love to be recognized as a state. Why aren’t they?
Palestine is recognised by the UN. Hamas are not.
Well, Palestinians didn't take hostages. They mostly tried to survive under an oppressive Terror Regime while the government that claims to own the land did nothing but feed on their misery for political gains. They are victims.
Hamas established said terror Regime and then unleashed their hatred on innocents inside and outside of their domain.
We need to clearly separate those two.
Because they never agreed to the UN partition plan.
I kid of course. If you’re really interested I suggest taking your time to read up on the history of the Ottoman empire post 1800 and then the yishuv and that would lead you to understand the current shituation
Because one side went into homes and kidnapped kids and mothers and dragged them back to Gaza after being gang raped. The other arrested people actually committing crimes. What is with people trying to “not make assumptions” about a terror group?
The people trying to go around claiming that Hamas just defending themselves from colonizers are no better than Sandy Hook deniers and claiming crisis actors lol.
The other side is always gang-raping and performing other dehumanizing acts that valiantly allow you to act in good conscience. This occurs on all sides. You are the humane and just one, the other side are barbaric animals, to be eradicated.
Prisoners - combatants or people they claim aided them who have surrendered or been captured without killing
Hostages - members of the public Hamas captured during the initial incursion
Can you provide a citation that the Palestinians were combatants? I’m seeing that they are mainly minors and women who were arrested for other things.
www.gov.il/he/Departments/…/is-db?skip=0
Can check their charges here
According to this new Aljezeera video there are multiple women that were kidnapped by israel without charges which were released today
youtu.be/kF_xnBKftew?si=jvpn2Z4T5TJ-ZgNg
Prisoners were tortured and killed by israel, especially after Oct 7
Aljazeera lmao
True. Al Jazeera is a Qutari state run media enterprise. They’re pretty reliable on news on things outside the Middle East, but tend to have a massive bias when it comes to matters of Qutar’s interests.
This is clearly a rhetorical question, OP just wants people to repeat back to them things they already agree with instead of real answers. I may despise Israel’s cruel treatment of West Bank Palestinians as much as the next guy, but at least the prisoners have (albeit only very slightly) better conditions than hostages whose lives could be immediately ended on a whim without due process if it pleases their captors. And many of the hostages aren’t even Israeli
Yes, because there are no extrajudicial killings in any prisons.
Hostages are victims. Prisoners are criminals. Calling a Palestinian a hostage makes you an anti-semite. Calling an Israeli a prisoner makes you an anti-semite. Being an anti-semite impacts profits. Hence the chips fall where they must.
Prisoners also implies a minimum level of treatment that hostage doesn’t.
Go read about how israel treats the Palestinian children it has in its prisons.
I love these social experiments. 👽 <– ain’t ever gonna visit this fucked up planet
👽 <– ain’t ever gonna visit this fucked up planet
I mean, we did nuke ourselves. multiple times over. we get our hands on an interstellar drive thingamadohickey and the first thing we’ll probably do with it, is turn it into a giant fucking kinetic-kill missile on an intersect course for wherever the fuck it came from. “return to sender”, with a gold record on it, just in case they wanna listen to ‘what a wonderful world’.
Because news agencies have bosses.
It’s the purpose of taking someone captive. Hostage mean it will be used to trade for other stuff.
In normal sense prisoner is taken because they violated the group/country rule and is mean to isolate them from the rest of the group. Under draconian administration they’re taken because whoever the one ruling just want to get rid of them.
Hamas take hostage to trade for the prisoner taken by Israel.
Prisoners are used to trade for “other stuff” as well, you know. Prisoners of War aren’t only soldiers, and they’re even held after a war ends to be used as trade.
i think prisoner of war is entirely different category and can be taken for multiple reason, including but not limited to trading for other prisoners of war held by enemy, isolate them from the rest of the combatant, extract intel, so on and so forth. Hostage is very specifically meant for trading, while prisoner is meant to punish and isolate from the rest of the group.
Pretty sure you could answer that yourself if you wanted to.
Just spontaneously, hostages are under the risk of execution, prisoners are not?
A combination of two factors:
semantic difference based on how the people came to be in captivity
Semantic difference? Really?
@Ilovethebomb I don't really understand your question.
semantic (adjective) Of or relating to meaning, especially meaning in language.
The word "prisoner" has different meaning to the word "hostage" even though there is some overlap.
It’s a stupid question.
It’s just how the West spins it. What israel does is effectively the same as Hamas. If anything Hamas treats their hostages better than israel.
Kids have died while being kidnapped by israel and not because of Hamas bombs hitting their prisons. They get beaten and stuff.
Because everyone knows only terrorists take hostages, so using the term to describe one side tells the public who to think is the terrorist side without having to actually say it.
Look, I know what the community is called. That’s why I’ll ask if you’re retarded instead of stupid.
You know what the community is called, but because you judge the question to be stupid you’re attacking them anyway by just changing the word? People like you are the reason communities like this exist in the first place. You make people afraid to express their curiosity and improve themselves as a person. Everyone has holes in their knowledge, and sometimes those holes are embarrassing. The best way to combat ignorance in our society is to foster a culture where people are encouraged to express their curiosity and educate themselves.
“The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute; the man who does not ask is a fool for life”
Yes. I often attack bad faith trolls.
Chozo@kbin.social 1 year ago
Lot of bad takes and sensationalism in this thread. The real difference is that one group (prisoners) were charged with crimes, and the others (hostages) weren't.
Whether those criminal charges are valid or not is another story, but that's why they're using different terms for each group, as they're not captive under the same pretense as the other.
NewDark@lemmings.world 1 year ago
Many Palestinian prisoners aren’t charged with crimes and have “secret evidence” held against them. Given Israel’s track record of lying and colonialist activity, I’ll leave you to decide if they actually do have that evidence. aljazeera.com/…/more-than-600-palestinians-held-b…
On top of that, the vast majority of the actual crimes are incredibly minor like rock throwing, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a child. The conditions and treatment in Israel prisons for Palestinians is incredibly grim as well.
There’s a thin vaneer of an unjust legal framework, and the aims of Israel aren’t as explicit to hold them for trade, but they’re a whole lot closer to being hostages than most people care to admit.
eatham@aussie.zone 1 year ago
You are really using a news source owned by the qatar govt for issues related to qatar?
CerealKiller01@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yes, but also no.
Palestinians who are held without trial are held in administrative detention, that’s usually done if the person poses an immediate danger, but the evidence isn’t up to the legal standard (a judge still has to approve the arrest). It’s also used against Jewish citizens (though admittedly much less. IIRC there are two Jews held in administrative detention right now).
Absolutely none of the Palestinians held in administrative detention are about to be set free, and they aren’t regarded as “standard” prisoners (they are always referred as “administrative detainees”, never “prisoners”).
crashfrog@lemm.ee 1 year ago
In what respect would the crime not matter if you’re a “child”? Minors frequently participate as attackers in Hamas attacks. If Israel didn’t apply punitive detention to anyone under 18, then every Hamas attacker would be under the age of 18.
bartolomeo@suppo.fi 1 year ago
That’s right, and a lot of people don’t know about how many Palestinians are being held indefinitely without charge in Israeli prisons. Oftentimes they are children who have been subjected to torture. And this is not something that started on October 7th, although the number of detainees has risen since then, including in the West Bank. It’s very difficult to make a case for the 2 am raids to take
hostagesprisoners in the West Bank when WB doesn’t have a Hamas government. As is often the case, the oppressors just make up laws and systems to catalyze oppression within a legal farce. Of course the truth is that Israel is commiting genocide of Palestinians in order to steal their land, but the vaneer is getting so thin that it’s making international law and the Geneva conventions a joke.WoodlandAlliance@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Thank you for a real answer.