fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
the gains come from the reduced overhead that linux has compared to windows
literally the next line
…the games here are being run through proton
I really hate the dismissal of the heavy lifting proton does. Proton is what makes gaming on Linux so great. So many native linux games perform worse on Linux vs their windows counterparts. Then again, I’d expect nothing less from Dave2D
Yeah its wine/proton and linux together. Wine/Proton efficiently handles translating the Windows programmes API calls into POSIX calls while Linux seems to offer a lower OS overhead so there is more system resource available for the games.
I do think Proton gets a little too much credit. Its wine plus faudio, dxvk and other open source projects combined. Proton is great but it is standing on the shoulders of giants.
Agreed. Proton is important as a bit of an “iPhone moment” where all this tech comes together in a way where non-techies “get it” in the sense where they understand why it’s useful, even if they’ll never bother to learn the details of why or how.
I do think Proton gets a little too much credit.
Why? Valve has been sponsoring all these projects for a really long time. While wine existed before that, it wouldn’t be anywhere near the shape thats its currently in because gaming was not its main focus. There have been loads of gaming bugs and sharp edges that have been around wine for a long time until Valve put in the money and devs to fix them.
What does proton do?
I only vaguely understand it as “thing that makes game playable on other thing.”
(And also I have six versions installed on my steam deck why do I need six of these?)
Proton is the compatibility layer that valve makes that lets you run games on Linux. Proton uses DXVK a program that converts Direct X API calls (windows only) to Vulkan API calls (runs on anything). DXVK alone gives you huge performance benefits (especially on older DirectX 11 and older games) and you can run it on windows.
Proton gives you a ton of other tools that can make huge performance differences.
Hopefully not a dumb question: If Vulkan runs on anything, assuming their game isn’t a Windows (Xbox?) exclusive, why don’t more people program their games to use Vulkan instead?
It’s becoming more common, but it mostly comes down to available tooling. At this point all three of the big game engines have a Vulkan backend available, but that’s a fairly recent development. And if a developer isn’t using a game engine, writing their own openGL renderer is easy, and writing a Vulkan renderer is a nightmare.
Vulkan is designed to be closer to the metal than something like DirectX 11 or OpenGL, which makes the API more explicit and difficult to use. This means it requires a great deal more care to use properly. And to complicate matters more, subtle bugs that are very difficult to debug are very easy to introduce.
But, this applies mostly to devs who build their own tech. Most of them these days are just using 3rd party engines like Unity or Unreal, so it comes down to whether or not the person making the game decides to check the box to use Vulkan and just how good those render backends are. Engine developers of 3rd party tech have to build their stuff to be as generic as possible. That’s likely gonna add a lot of bloat that might not be fully optimized for every game developer’s use case.
TLDR: It’s tough and time consuming for someone writing it themselves. And for the ones who aren’t, they’re having to place a lot of trust in a renderer that is probably a black box and might be buggy/slow.
That my friend, is entering operating system politics.
But the TLDR is: resistance to change, lack of support, bribery, a combination of all 3, features, and much much more!
Because DirectX is more than a graphics API.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
A fair amount of what used to make DirectX an everything API has been deprecated, but if you are already using Windows stuff for networking and audio, then you may as well use the graphics APIs too.
I’ll add for completeness that vkd3d-proton handles DX12 titles, and of course OGL and Vulkan are supported natively.
Most simply put, it’s a layer that allows a computer program expecting windows to run on Linux. It isn’t emulating anything, just sorta like translating.
Think of it like a language. Windows speaks English, so a program expects to talk in English. But let’s pretend like Linux talks Spanish. Proton translates the English commands to Spanish for Linux to understand and execute, and then Proton converts the responses back to English for the program.
The big thing though about Proton is that it’s not an additional translation/emulation layer. It doesn’t translate into Spanish for Linux, as that would be slow, it makes Linux talk English.
So in your example, imagine you, the English speaking program, want to catch a taxi in Madrid/Linux but all taxi drivers speak only Spanish. An emulation layer would be “translating”, so you would have an additional guy in the taxi that you could talk to that talks to the Spanish driver. Proton is not that, it’s an English-speaking taxi driver.
Proton uses Wine, which is a Windows system call API translation layer for Linux. In other words, it translates commands for the Windows kernel into calls for the Linux kernel.
So it’s kind of an emulator and kind of not, but regardless the metaphor of a translator is fine. As a lightweight translator, you might say it’s like using Google Translate on your phone to translate back and forth quickly and automatically, rather than having a person in the middle who needs to think about it.
I think the example you’re using is closer to emulation.
I’m not an expert by any means, most of my technology experience comes from hardware. But Proton isn’t changing the Linux ecosystem, and the programs are still expecting a windows environment when they’re run via Proton.
From what I recall, Linux and windows can both do the same stuff, they just have different names or different ways to ask for resources. And Proton receives the request for whatever and converts it to the Linux equivalent.
It’s not nearly as bad as it was in the past, now that the graphics APIs are system agnostic.
I think it’s what Valve has branded their fork of Wine. It translates win32 calls to Linux ones, and DirectX to Vulkan. Probably some other stuff too idk
Proton is Wine plus DXVK and VKD3D, as well as a big pile of little tweaks and out of tree changes that Valve maintains to specifically maximize game compatibility and performance.
It sounds a lot like what the GPU driver providers used to do (and probably still do, despite all DX12 and Vulkan’s promises of making that unnecessary) on top of making the drivers.
And that is basically “fixing badly written games so they perform well on the hardware”.
As far as I can tell, Intel has been using Proton’s fixes (DXVK) a bit to get their drivers working on older games on Windows.
I really hate the dismissal of the heavy lifting proton does.
What part of this did you interpret as a dismissal?
For every game that you claim runs worse on Proton you can find dozens that run better or at least as well as Windows.
I also wonder how much of it is RADV vs AMDGPU drivers. Wonder what the result would have been if the Deck used the AMDGPU drivers instead. Saying it is just “the magic of Linux” papers over a lot.
I think it doesn’t really matter, in the end the question is, do I get a better experience as a consumer on Linux or Windows?
I’m not sure what you’re saying. Proton is incredible obviously, but by itself it doesn’t make games run better. Using vulkan instead of DirectX could improve performance, but presumably most of the performance gain is from not running windows in the background.
It’s a bit of both, along with the Linux AMD drivers being superior in many cases to the Windows drivers.
Ephera@lemmy.ml 3 days ago
I mean, yeah, but if Proton is doing an absolutely flawless job, then it has 0 performance penalty compared to Windows. All the actual gains still do come from Linux having less overhead. So, both are true, that Proton is killing it and that the gains come from Linux.
fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
DXVK (which also runs on windows) alone gives you a huge performance benefit. Playing world of warcraft on windows I’ll see about a 30% reduction in CPU usage and higher performance.
Proton doesn’t just get you to almost matching Windows’ performance. Proton easily outperforms windows even on higher end hardware where windows bloat isn’t a concern.
Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz 3 days ago
While proton enables that, that’s still just vulkan outperforming DirectX.
So technically proton isn’t improving performance here, it’s just allowing the game to run on better performing systems (like Linux and vulkan).
Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
It’s just Vulkan outperforming DirectX by translating DirectX to Vulcan. If you’re comparing the default experience with Windows and Linux, how can you say Proton isn’t technically improving performance? What would you call that if a performance increase is caused by running through Proton?